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Zelda no Densetsu

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  1. For a few years viz has been publishing Zelda manga in Japan, detailing (and expanding upon) the stories in the games. Now Simon and Schuster is bringing them stateside, starting with the two-volume Ocarina of Time story, followed by Majora's Mask and Oracle of Seasons. They're being marketed for younger readers, but that also means a slightly lower pricetag than traditional manga since they're going for $7.99.

    I know this doesn't mean much to those of you outside of the US, but I'm excited.

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  3. That's great, I just hope that because it's being marketed to young kids that it won't be edited all to hell.

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  5. thts awesome

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  7. Well, I picked up volume one the other day, and its fantastic. The artwork is great, and the story, while definitely not complex adult fare, is still very readable, and does a good job adapting the games. The feel of this manga was very similar to the Kingdom Hearts manga that Tokyopop has been putting out for a few years. I eagerly await the next volumes!

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  11. oh you don't want to start this rant. And I don't feel like giving it to you right now. I'm dead tired, and I don't want to be up all night typing. You need to learn a few things though, I'll tell you that much. I'll be back tomorrow or tomorrow evening with a really long post about this.

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  13. K

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  15. oh SNAP!

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  17. K I'm back. Now I will tell you exactly why you should wait.

    Basics of the basics first. Stealin' is stealin', no matter what kind of face you want to put on it, reading a book that you haven't yet paid for is not only illegal, its wrong (those terms aren't as mutually exclusive as some would have you believe).

    Now, granted, flipping through a book at Barnes and Nobles (or the local equivalent bookstore) to decide if its right for you and/or worth spending your (presumably) hard-earned cash on is generally considered societally acceptable. I don't even have a problem with that. But this bullshit of 'they're not putting out my anime or manga out fast enough, so its well within my rights to just steal it' is nothing but a flawed justification for petty thievery.

    People don't understand the gravity of the crisis the anime and manga industries are facing right now. Fan subs for anime and fan translations for manga that hit the internet long before the American release have always been a nagging problem for the american distributors, but its never gotten anywhere near as bad as it has these past few years, with the advent of nigh-universal high-speed internet and the introduction of the entitlement generation to Japan's greatest art forms. Tokyopop has had to completely withdraw from the anime market. ADV and FUNimation have been forced to do massive layoffs just to stay alive, and Musicland has all but dissappeared. Geneon is now gone completely. And that's just in Anime (which, admittedly, is facing a much larger crisis than manga).

    Everybody thinks that 'oh, it doesn't really hurt the company that much when I do it. It's not that big of a deal. But the problem is, everyone is doing it, to the point that it is a big deal. You (and 32,768 other individuals like yourself) download fanscans of Ocarina vol. 2 from the aforementioned link (no pun intended). Sales are bad enough when the manga actually releases (even though far more than enough people are reading the book) that Viz has to discontinue the line. Now shift the perspective even bigger, because its far from just Zelda that faces this. I've personally dug around and found fan translations for virtually every manga Tokyopop and Viz (I didn't bother with the others) are putting out this month. You take the model at this level and at some point it causes the collapse of the American manga market. Which of course, doesn't affect any of the american manga fans, because now they don't even feel obligated to pay for it! They can just read it free online with no moral or physical cost, right?

    Wrong.

    Everything has a price, and if American manga aren't being produced, then the price of downloading manga becomes that Japanese distributors can no longer afford to print as many different titles, and some of your favorites are the first ones to go. I'm not stupid enough to say that the anime/manga market would collapse entirely, this is an extreme enough scenario already, but even though its extreme, its what we're headed towards.

    Now I realize, I'm basing this whole rant on the assumption that you're American, but the same concept apply no matter where in the world you are. Downloading illegal fanscans or fansubs because you can't be bothered to wait for the official release is wrong, its idiotic, and I just can't understand how people can be so small-minded as to so callously partake in it.

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  19. But I think everything I want I should have and I should get it for free because I deserve it. Are you trying to say I should work to earn money, carefully choose what it is I really want and then pay for it? And if for some reason what I want won't be available for a few months (or longer), I should wait? This world where work, patience, and decisiveness are demanded of everyone sounds grim. I fear to think what it would be like if someday everyone had to behave this way.

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  21. Bothered to wait? I first read that thing like 6 years ago, buddy. If fansubs are really that much of a problem, then maybe the distributors should get off their asses and stop waiting so fucking long to bring that shit over here. I mean come on, the OoT manga was released in 1998, it's 2008 now, THAT'S 10 FUCKING YEARS!!! How long should we wait? And another thing, just cause I read it on the internet, does not mean I won't buy it when it comes out over here. I've read the entire (or what's been written so far) of the manga, Gantz (which is awesome btw), and yet I've still brought all the volumes that have come out so far; I guess Dark Horse was smart enough not wait a damn decade to bring it over. When Shamo and Grappler Baki finally come out here, I'll buy that shit in a fucking heartbeat, too.

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  23. Ah, yes. When all else fails, foul language always seems to be humanity's last discourse.

    Zelda is a unique case in manga. I'll grant you that. But in 1998, do you really think the American manga market was large enough to support a manga based on a video game? So now that the market is larger, and we've (semi)recently had the mega-hit release of Twilight Princess to rekindle interest amongst the masses in the franchise, Viz decided that now would be a good time to bring the Zelda manga's stateside. I know this may sound crazy, but they didn't wait ten years just out of spite. They wanted to release it at a time when it would actually sell well enough to justify the printing and licensing fees (and God forbid, perhaps actually make a profit too).

    But as for whether or not fansubs are a problem? Um, reality check? The distributors are doing everything they can to get the newest manga into your hot little hands as soon as they can but whereas a funscanner simply takes the manga, photoshops in his best guess at what all the dialogue is supposed to mean (which is at least a little off in most cases, Japanese is a very subjective and situational language), and posts it up on the interwebs, Viz has to license the manga from its Japanese distributor, then have it professionally translated, so that you, the fan, are getting the best possible product, and then they have to send it off to be printed, then it has to be distributed to your local book or comic store.

    Now, all that being said, if you're buying the manga when it does come out stateside, then I really don't have a whole lot of problem, although frankly, there's a whole lot of other manga you could be reading that have been released in the time you spend reading fanscans.

    EDIT: btw, I want to say thank you for your post, Nels. I couldn't have said it any better.

    EDIT2: I'm really not trying to gang up on you specifically, Son_Gara. Trust me, I've done this to a lot of people on a lot of different forums. You're nowhere near as bad as a lot of people I've attempted to educate, but the fact is, this is a HUGE problem, and I'm just doing every little bit that I can to solve it, one person at a time.

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  25. I saw volume 2 the other day at Borders. That's cool; at least they're bringing them out relatively fast rather than waiting 3-4 months in between, like other companies do.

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  27. if any manga/book/CD/movie was really that good, you'd download it anyway and then buy it when it comes available. You can't hold all pirates to this 'code' of sorts, but it certainly makes sense to use it. I've seen the Dark knight 5 times in theaters, and I plan on buying the DVD next week...that doesn't keep me from having a copy on my computer to watch whenever I want. If the shit isn't available yet, it isn't available. I'm not saying that makes piracy okay or anything, I just think putting a broad generalization of internet pirates like that isn't exactly right either.

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  29. I will put broad generalizations on internet pirates all day if I think they are accurate generalizations. You have to remember, LittleCactaur, you are not the masses. I still don't condone your behavior (even if yours is a very benign form of piracy), but it doesn't mean I think you are a cheap, lazy, and impatient egomaniac. At least, I don't think that yet :P

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  31. Exactly. Nels, I really appreciate someone having the exact same opinions as me, so that I don't have to be bothered to type them all out.

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  33. Nels said:
    I will put broad generalizations on internet pirates all day if I think they are accurate generalizations. You have to remember, LittleCactaur, you are not the masses.

    well if you want to hear from the masses to more accurately pinpoint where your generalization should be aimed, I suggest starting Here :D

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  35. Yeah, so reading the responses on the link you gave, makes me feel even more confident in my generalization :S Thank you for a new mountain of evidence to bolster my ever growing dislike for pirates!

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  37. Wow I missed out on a classic BATTLE OF THE WILLS here!!

    So, do neither of you consider that what we're actually going through here is an evolution of an economic model that hasn't completed its development yet, but will at some point? And the result will change things for the better? It's going to happen eventually, and whether or not you have an opinion either way isn't going to have any effect on that.

    "Pirates" are too 20th century for any modern mental model. "It is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself": our consumption is a constant. The variance will take place around the presentation. Products like joost, veoh, etc are going to evolve to craft that new market. Meanwhile, all you can really do is keep watching.

    Or, you can complain about it and disadvantage yourself through now-arbitrary adherence to a bygone era.

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  39. Well, as Veronica Cartwright so eloquently put it, 'I like whining...'

    Besides, I think that while change is inevitable, that doesn't necessarily mean that change is for the better, often quite the opposite.

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  41. That's a generally true statement. Do you think it applies here? If so, I'd like to hear your reasons.

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  45. The inherent problem lies not within the corporations trying to 'stick it to us' by deliberately making it where we can't use music files or whatever after a while, the problem lies specifically within human nature itself, because a system that works just fine for 98% of the populace where everyone is buying and selling and happy, there's always that two percent that think the system shouldn't apply to them and they go and fuck it up for everyone else. The problem is only exacerbated by the technocentric age we live in. Every halfwit with a computer can get virtually anything he wants for free now, and every halfway intelligent person seems to think that the world just owes them everything they want.

    Now I'm not saying that this 'newly emerging economic model' will necessarily be a bad thing, I'm just saying that right now, it's not a good thing. No matter whether or not you're actually transferring funds, everything has a cost, and I think that the pirates of this generation are going to eventually learn that the hard way. Unfortunately, so will the rest of us.

    EDIT: also, I feel I should mention that there's a third way to keep your music (since that's the topic of the cartoon) for life: Just buy it on CD! You can import it to itunes, chances are you can probably get it for less money, and you have the physical medium rather than just having a song title flashing across your screen. I know I'm probably just a dinosaur who's clinging to the past or whatever, but I like a tangible connection to my media, and even besides that, with all the battles going on with piracy, and sharing, and whatever else is going on this week, I just don't see how mp3 (and similar format) downloading is better than CDs. I really just don't.

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  47. I just don't see how mp3 (and similar format) downloading is better than CDs.

    Mp3's don't get scratched.

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  49. I love this thread

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  51. Son_Gara said:

    I just don't see how mp3 (and similar format) downloading is better than CDs.

    Mp3's don't get scratched.

    And neither do CDs if you care for them properly, which is so easy to do I am astounded that people still have problems with scratched CDs, DVDs, etc.

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  53. I'm going to throw away most of what you said and just focus on this:

    Mr_Domino said:
    everything has a cost

    Exactly. If you give me music for free, I accept that I should pay you back for it. But I don't accept that just because the economic model used to be that arbitrary amounts of music (how do you quantify that?) grouped together on an "album" go for $11.99 or whatever, that's the way everything should always be.

    There are a lot of avenues to go down that don't involve buying plastic encasing for an aluminium disc. For instance, Madonna is all about making money primarily via concerts these days. Radiohead has introduced the idea of donating whatever you feel is appropriate.

    I've seen web services that are going to offer comprehensive tooling for bands to create online presences that combine traditional offerings (an online shop) with new Web 2.0 concepts like paying a monthly fee to subscribe to a feed that immediately delivers new music by that band to your email inbox whenever it becomes available. Services like Oink should be friends with the industry and provide a pro service that you pay for for improved reliability, speed, responsiveness, etc.

    There's plenty of leeway here and none of it necessarily involves me going out of my way to be inconvenienced when there are easier, cheaper, more expandable, future-proofed, user friendly ways to do it.

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  55. I ask this of everyone that mentions the Radiohead model for album sales: Think of all the CDs you have downloaded illegally off the internet that you didn't go right out to the store and buy full price. Have you ever sent the band a check? I am serious. Have you ever thought CD X by band Y is worth Z dollars, so I'll give it to them? If you thought, "This is worth zero dollars," did you delete all the files immediately?

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  57. I sent Radiohead a Loaf of bread for letting me download 'In Rainbows'...checks are too impersonal. Does that count?

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  59. Nels said:
    I ask this of everyone that mentions the Radiohead model for album sales: Think of all the CDs you have downloaded illegally off the internet that you didn't go right out to the store and buy full price. Have you ever sent the band a check? I am serious. Have you ever thought CD X by band Y is worth Z dollars, so I'll give it to them? If you thought, "This is worth zero dollars," did you delete all the files immediately?

    There are plenty of albums I download pre-release for convenience and then buy later on, so yes. But that's my personal conviction: if the album isn't good enough to buy, it's not good enough to buy and I'm not going to pay for it. That pretty much equals the valid approach to Radiohead's setup which is that you could donate some money if you thought it was worth it, or you could donate nothing and download it for free if you didn't. The result is that the individual purchasing music from a band isn't the point. It's the collective sum produced by all fans together, and the fans who donate a lot will balance out those that don't.

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  61. I am just not convinced the Radiohead model would work for everyone, yet. Another problem is that Radiohead is Radiohead. They are insanely popular and could sell a record even if it sucked. It would be nice to see some numbers associated with the Radiohead model before really passing judgement. Production cost, number of sales before production cost was recouped, average price paid for purchase (I found a survey saying about $6), etc. All this would really be helpful for figuring out its validity and possibly extensions to other bands.

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  63. Yeah, of course the Radiohead model won't work for everyone. But Radiohead's model isn't the only model. I was just giving examples of offshoot next-gen-music-industry phenomena that has happened to be demonstrated in the past few years. There's lots more to come.

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